A small insight into the world of ammunition, explosives, rockets, missiles, artillery, mortars, mines etc.

[Erhard]

As some of you know, I’m a former frontline Combat Engineer, served in Afghanistan and later went on to becoming EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) personal.

So, since some of you are interested in warfare, ammunition etc. I figured I might be able to give a bit of insight into the world of ammunition – small and large calibers, explosives, rockets, missiles, artillery, mortars, mines etc. Even colour schemes.
Bare in mind it’s been a while since I worked with it so, it might take me a min to find the right information again, and everything might not be accurate anymore since I go off old notes and memory.

Happy reading.

First off
Let’s get the term rocket and missile out of the way. Since I’ve heard the use of both for the wrong ordinance.

Rocket

• Think of it as fire and forget. An RPG – Rocket Propelled Grenade or other similar piezo-HEAT rockets, you fire off and hope to hit (piezo crystals generates electricity when crushed, very dangerous stuff to disarm). You cannot do anything to it after you pulled the trigger, so you better be damn sure to hit. This is why rockets have mixed results vs personals.

Missile

• Here you have control. This can still be a piezo-HEAT mechanism but you got control after you fired the missile. Take a TOW-missile, once fired from the launcher, a small copper wire will be connected to the missile for you to guide it to it’s target.

• MLRS – GMLRS are massive missiles guided artillery, that’s guided to their target via GPS. They arm after 30 km (18.6 miles).

TLDR:

• Rocket = fire and forget (RPG). Missiles = Control over, can be guided to its target (TOW)

Secondly
Let’s talk about colour. Yeah I know it might not sound important but trust me it is.
(I almost convinced a British infantry to fire a golden 30 mm HE grenade from his gun, which he refused in the end. Good choice since it could have destroyed his gun. Golden 30 mm HE grenades are meant for the grenade launchers, and therefore have a larger velocity which equals a bigger fire mechanism.)

So, every country paints their ammunition. This is firstly to protect it and secondly to mark what the hell it is. These colours date back to the USSR time period. So not very accurate for Post Scriptum.

NATO (which 99% here are part of) uses two different systems, above and below 20 mm.

NATO colour (solid or in bands) for ammunition below caliber 20 mm:
Colour & Meaning:

• No colour = Sharp projectile (normal rounds like standard 5.56, 7.62 or 12.7)

• Red = Projectile with tracer (often red, blue yellow or green)

• Black = (Anti)Panzer Projectile (Very hard hitting – sometimes under calibrated - will shred personal)

• Silver = (Anti)Panzer Fire Projectile (Same as black just with added phosphor)

• Blue = Fire Projectile (phosphor)

NATO colour (solid or in bands) for ammunition above caliber 20 mm:
Colour & Meaning:

• Yellow = Includes brisant explosives (high explosive, "big bada boom")

• Brown = Includes non-brisant explosives (boom)

• Grey = Includes chemicals (chemical warfare – often teargas)

• Black = (Anti)Panzer Projectile (tank shells etc.)

• Light Green = Smoke

• Light Red = Fire ammunition (phosphor)

• White = Light (big ball of fire in the air)

• Blue = Practice

These are the overall general markings for NATO. The colour can be a solid or in the form of rings if you want to paint your rounds to camouflage them. (England, Germany and Denmark did have some different colours at some point but that’s not so important right now).

USA
Then there’s the mighty USA. They are still using their own colour scheme, but it’s somewhat similar to the NATO Standard so I’m not going to list that (can do if you want it). On American 12.7 mm ammunition (heavy 50.cal) the tip is marked with the colour. So, a black tipped 12.7 is Panzer rounds. There are many variations of 12.7 mm rounds, some very evil once in the mix as well.

Russia
Then there’s the mighty Russia. This is a different system as you might imagine, combining colours and Cyrillic letters. Which all can be combined in different ways with nose-colours, colour bands and letters. All good fun when you’re looking at a 50 years old Russian bomb. The Russian base colour is always grey or green.

Letter & Meaning:

• R = Grenade with tracer

• S = Light Grenade (big ball of fire)

• F = Bricant explosives (high explosive, "big bada boom")

• Kh = Gas (all kinds of funky stuff in those)

• B = (Anti)Panzer grenade

• G = (Anti)Concrete grenade

• D = Smoke

• E = Fire

• O = Flechette grenade (filled with small steel arrows, spread happiness to many)

These letters can then be combined; OE, OER, OR, OF, OFR, OKh, BE, BER, BR. All good fun.


And now for Russian bombs (A whole new set of colours and letters yay!)
Nose Colour + Bands on the body + Letters = Meaning:

• None + None + FAB = Standard bomb (big or small boom)

• Green + Blue + AO = Flechette bomb

• Green + Green & Blue + AOKh = Cemical bomb with Flechette

• Orange + None + BRAB = Light Panzer bomb

• Blue + None + BETAB = Heavy Panzer bomb

• Blue + Blue + ZAB = Fire bomb

• None + Red + KhAB = Chemical with lingering gas

• Green + Green + KhAB = Chemical with airborne gas

• Green + Yellow & Green + KRAB = Chemical with toxic gas

• White + White + SAB = Light

That will be all for now I think. And thanks for reading. Feel free to ask any questions if you want to.

[Salti]

Thank you.

[Dildo McBaggins]

Interesting read. Thanks. Guess being in that field you gotta have nerves of steel and damn steady hand.

[BleakMaker]

wow really nice did not know anything about the colours.

[Salti]

How dangerous is using grenades in reality.
Cos i imagine it could be really tricky.
Sry this is not quite related to the subject.
But its something ive often thought.

[Erhard]

Well that depends. There is no such thing as a friendly live grenade.

But generally, there are five different kinds of grenades, offensive, defensive, practice, fire and smoke.

• An offensive, is an thin-walled grenade that often holds more Trotyl (explosives) and a very short fuze timer, around 5 sec. They creates a massive shockwave (effect 5 – 8 meters in diameter) when it goes off. This shockwave is used to stun and shock the people you throw it at. You can then follow it up with a devastating attack afterwards. Don’t get me wrong, if you were to catch the damn thing you would have a very bad day. Plus a shockwave can be equally as devastating as the explosive, and you’ll have a very hard time hiding from it since it goes around corners. It can shatter your alveoli’s for example.

Offensive Grenade (don’t let the smooth exterior fool you, some smooth grenades can be defensive)

• A defensive grenade often has less Trotyl but is jampacked with metal that will fragment (iron fragments) on detonation (effect 10 – 15 meters in diameter) and have a fuze time around 5 - 10 sec. This makes it very good for lobbing op from a foxhole, outside your sandbags etc. It can also be very devastating in clearing a room if it’s open. These types of grenades are often quite “touch hazardous” if not exploded.

Defensive Grenade


But since offensive and defensive grenades are somewhat localized explosion the grenade gives off. This means that the explosion will go in upwards V shape from the point of detonation. So, “all you have to do” to increase your chances of survival, is to hit the floor quickly and hope.

• Practice grenades are what they say they are. Don’t drop it because it does have a small detonator inside it.

• Smoke grenades are filled with yellow phosphor so don’t f*ck around with them. It’s highly toxic and can course fires.

• Fire grenades, here you have hell incarnated. They are often filled with aluminum powder and iron oxide. Yes, it’s Thermite. It’ll melt though just about anything. Don’t f*ck around with this stuff.

So, all in all grenades are very dangerous if live. If you store them properly or handle them properly they are safe.

[Mr-Zicko]

Thank you for this.

[Salti]

What sort of warning do you have if hit by mortars...arty.
Is it like you think you hear a whistle....a noise.
So you can hit the deck.
Or only warning you get is when the first round hits.

[Erhard]

You do hear a noise, a sort of whistle. It’s the stabilizing fins making the noise as wind goes through them. But you only hear it once its passing by / when it’s near you. When the noise stops (without a boom) it’s right above you, heading for your general location (very scary btw). During a fire-fight, you'll only notice it once it hits.

Artillery passing overhead sounds like a train rushing by. It is after all a 120+ mm monster going full speed towards some unlucky person.

There is also a vast difference between Mortar and Artillery in general btw.

[Salti]

Thankyou for the time taken on this sudject.
Plus ill be back...fasinating subject thx.

[Ibuprofenix]

Awesome thread, thanks for the info.

You've said the shockwave goes around the corners, could you elaborate? I thought a good cover would also help against the shockwave. Does the EOD suit do anything against the shockwave then (they aren't sealed, are they)?

[Erhard]

Shockwave:
Extensive research has been done to see if “good cover” was indeed enough, which is relative in the first place. Everybody though so, but no. A shockwave will wrap around walls, building, trees, your cover etc. and still hit you.

Marvel at my paint skills: Red = shockwave:

A shockwave works something like that, granted it doesn’t just remove the house in the first place.

That is why, when throwing an offensive grenade (during practice) you need to be able to throw it at least 20 meters, plus to be safe from fragments of course.

When standing behind a wall, a shockwave, depending on its size but a normal offensive grenade, will punch you in the face and back of you head, your chest will feel like you’re at a loud concert, and you get a love tap on your bum. It might feel all right, but continuous exposure will hurt you.

Take for example the 84 mm Carl Gustaf recoilless rifle, a beast of a weapon. With this, you are not recommended to fire more then 8 rounds pr day, since the shockwave courses your insides to rattle too much. Which during long exposure will feel like you’ve been beaten, and can course bleeding as well.

Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifle. (You can use the colour chart to figure out the rounds behind it, or just read the text)



When you’re using explosives (it comes in many different forms) you need to be a specific distance away from the blast to be safe from both the shockwave and fragments.
Lets imagen, you’re removing a live 1100 lbs bomb (500 kg), it’s lying flat on the ground cooking. If you have the right protection (closed APC for example) you need to be at least 200 meters away (656 ft), if you don’t you need to be at least 1250 meters away (4101ft).

All this of course goes out the window during Zulu time, and some cover is always better than no cover.

EOD Suit:
These suits are sealed yes, and a bitch to wear. They do not come alone however, you’ll get a shield with it as well. The shield and suit combined can (with a bit of luck) help you survive the shockwave and explosion. EOD Suits are not iron man suits, they cannot stand up to as much as you might think. It’s like body armor, it’ll try and save you, but if the bullet/explosion is large enough it’ll go straight though.
But the suit does have protective measures against shockwaves and high pressure at the front to protect you abdomen and lungs.

[Salti]

Ive always wondered.
You always see mortar rounds hitting the ground , but isnt that a waste of energy.
The ground takes a fair amount of the blast.
Are there mortar rounds that explode at for example 20m above the ground.
Like a big arial shotgun.

[Ads /brit/]

You can usually select either ground detonation or "air burst" on the mortar bomb itself. Ideal when your targets are either soft skinned vehicles, troops in the open or if you require penetration to enemy overhead protection such as a jungle canopy.

[Cobiee]

Extremely interesting topic, thanks Erhard for going to the effort of putting this together for us!

I have a question.

We're all aware of the RPG (RPG-7), but what I am curious to know is how much more of a threat is a RPG-29 or even an SPG-9 to the likes of a M2 Bradley or even an Abrams/Challenger 2/Leopard 2 tank?

This would be subject to the type of rocket fired, going off your original post would it not?

[Jrom]

Damn!

That is some serious interesting stuff you writing here!
Always loved reading and being informed of the insights of guns and weapons.

Thanks for sharing!

[Erhard]

To answer @Salti question.

Ok first off, mortars function is not only to eliminate. It’s also to suppress and deny arear. With that in mind, the psychotically effect mortars can have on a squad, section, platoon etc. can be devastating even though it didn’t hit anyone in particular. The sound alone can be enough to make people run. I’ve seen people waking up from just the sound of mortars and run to the nearest APC. Therefore, the energy is never a waste.

By the wording of you question, it sounds like you are more interested in the elimination effect they can have. Bare in mind, that mortars range from 47 mm to 240 mm, which is a damn big shell, so they can do a lot of damage.

There are generally seven different mortars:

• Brisant

• Smoke

• Light

• Target guided

• Signal

• Practice

• Education

Let’s focus on the brisant since it got the biggest potential to answer your question. So, is it as waste of energy letting it hit the ground? No. It all depends on the detonation mechanism in the mortar, and the grounds absorbs a surprisingly small amount of energy.

There are six different detonation mechanism for mortars (that I know of):

• Mechanical Impact Detonation

• Timed Detonation

• Mechanical Timed Detonation

• Mechanical Combined Detonation

• Approximate/near to the ground Detonation

• Detonation for IDM (Improvised conventional munition)

So, if you combine a brisant mortar with the mechanical timed detonation (because here you can predeterminate the point of detonation for example 400 meters), you can get an airburst effect that will detonate above the ground, raining down metal for all to enjoy in a large area of effect.

To answer @Cobiee question. (good question btw, I f*cking hate the SPG-9)

The SPG-9 fires HE or HEAT rounds, which has little to no effect on the Abrams/Challenger 2/Leopard 2 tank. The M2 Bradley however is a bit more… squishy. Without extra armor (reactive armor or spaced armor) a HEAT round can do a major amount of damage to the M2 Bradleys crew. A HEAT round might not work as you think.

The RPG-29 is a different kind of player. This is specifically designed to combat the western armor. This is because of its tandem charged system. This system is designed to firstly set off the reactive armor and then try to punch a hole though the armor. The TOW works in the same way. But if you were to shoot it at a modern-day Abrams/Challenger 2/Leopard 2 you would probably be without luck (depending on where you’re hitting it), since the RPG-29 were designed and produced during the cold war, and we use more then just reactive armor today. The M2 Bradley (without any added armor) would be in serious trouble, since it’s steel upon steel which HEAT love to go through.

[Salti]

Have to realise....my questions stem from absolute ignorance.
Being a Brit we've never really trusted large numbers if the population to have this knowledge.
Thankfully i'll never need it.
But great to hear some solid inside knowledge on the subject.
Still thinking about my misconceptions.
Back soon.

[Cobiee]

Wow that's insane, it be much more worried being a tank crewman knowing that information.

Especially when these nut job groups get their hands on all sorts of kit, I've seen them firing ATGMs quite often!



@Erhard, what's the biggest piece of ordnance/bomb you've disarmed and how worried were you during the entire ordeal? xD

[Erhard]

I've never disarmed anything, I disposed of old explosives, grenades, tank ammunition etc. That kind of work.

The worst thing I ever found however, well two worst things, were:

A daisy chain (multiple IED's connected to each others via electronics or explosives), making it self known as a fellow soldier sat down and the pressure plate flipped up from the ground as he sat on the side of it. This daisy chain consisted of eight 155 mm artillery HE grenades plotted all along the place we were resting. So had he been sitting down just a few centimetres to the side, we would have had a really bad day. That daisy chain was not fun to follow and uncover, while trying to guide people away, while everyone were shitting them self.

The second thing was a 25 kg (55 pounds) IED connected to a turn signal glass, these setups requires very little preasure to go off. And this one I found by accident while sitting above it. I spotted some plastic in the ground and I got curious. And wolla, IED right below me.

The moment an Engineer gets a hit while sweeping, and or stops, people tend to freak out a bit.